Writing Cozy Fantasy as a Joyful Side Hustle with Belinda Kroll

Episode 171 /How do you balance writing, motherhood, and finding joy in your craft? Today, we had the pleasure of chatting with the talented Belinda Kroll, a cozy fantasy writer who’s mastered the art of the joyful side hustle. Belinda shares her journey from vanity press publishing to indie success, and how she’s cultivated a thriving newsletter and community along the way.

Discover Belinda’s efficient writing process that keeps her joy intact, and learn how her current lifestyle influences her writing and fits in with her busy life. We also explore her journey of utilizing Canva Pro to create a content calendar on Instagram and compose for TikTok, maximizing her social media presence to market her work to readers.

Join us as we dive into the world of cozy fantasy and paranormal elements, examining the rules and distinctions within the genre. Belinda shares her experience building a community on Patreon, the importance of setting expectations, and her all-in-one planner for Discovery Writers. Don’t miss this insightful conversation with the brilliant Belinda Kroll!

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Show notes:

Using Canva Pro for content creation, and learning to market to the right audience and make it fun.
Focusing energy on goals and investing in things that matter, as shown by marking daily achievements on a calendar.
Creating boundaries and prioritizing energy.
The definition of cozy fantasy as small, slice-of-life stories with a touch of fantasy and romance.
How Belinda’s subscription is set up with one high tier and one $5 tier, which lets readers be closer to her and provide feedback on her upcoming book.
The creation of an all-in-one planner, a combination of seven different journals meant for writers to track their goals and progress, including brainstorming topics, monthly challenges, self-care pages, and quarterly spreads.

https://worderella.com

https://worderella.com/links

https://brightbirdpress.com/

WIKT Episode 159: Build Consistent Income and Connect with Readers with Emilia Rose and Michael Evans of Ream.ink https://wishidknownforwriters.com/159-2/

I love that. Well, tell us how you got into writing.

Belinda Kroll [00:01:57]:
I have always been a writer. I have memories of being seven. I’m one of those kids. I was seven years old and I had this story, and I remember using the word ruler in my story, and I was seven years old, and my teacher was like, you don’t know what that word means. And I was like, sure I do. It means a king, you’re a queen. And she thought I meant a measure, and so she thought I was using the wrong word. I’m like, no, I’m writing a story about a king and a princess. He’s the ruler. Right. That’s kind of the story of my life. Right. I pick up words and people are like, why did you even know that word? And now you’re using it in a story I’ve been doing my entire life. I went the computer engineering route for undergrad, and then I went into human computer interaction for grad school because I was convinced that writing isn’t going to pay the bills. And I’m glad that I did that because I don’t want writing to pay the bills. I want writing to be my fun thing. And this is a joyful side hustle for me. It’s a compulsion for me. I joke with my husband. I have two cycles, and one of them is if I haven’t written long enough, I get the same sort of hangry and upset as other people with other things that just, like, feed their soul.

Jami Albright [00:03:25]:
So, yeah, that’s great. Well, you know what? I love that you said you don’t want writing to pay your bills. I mean, I think about that a lot. It does put a lot of pressure on your writing, and Elizabeth Gilbert and Big Magic talks about that. And I just think we don’t think about that enough because being a full time writer is kind of the goal for a lot of people, and it might not suit your personality.

Belinda Kroll [00:03:56]:
Your home life. I think it’s a retirement goal for me. Someone had joked with my direct sales. The way I was talking about it sounded like I was building up like a 401 and I was sort of like, you know what? Kind of when I’m retired. But in the meantime, I want health insurance that I don’t have to think about and I want to be able to support the kids through their school activities and all sorts of things. There are a lot of expenses that I don’t want to have to think about, so let’s keep the day job and we’ll do this thing on the side.

Sara Rosett [00:04:34]:
Yeah, I think there are a lot of writers that come to writing later in life, and it is like retirement years are a great time to be a writer because you can set your own schedule and hopefully you have income coming in from your retirement 401K or whatever. And then if you can add to it with writing, that’s awesome. And I love how you called it a joyful side hustle, because sometimes we think of side hustles as like, oh, it’s just got to get in there and do the work. And it’s like, so hard. But if it can be joyful, that’s fantastic. So that kind of leads to our next question.

What is your definition of success?

Belinda Kroll [00:05:10]:
I do think my definition of success is tone. Am I still having fun? I am definitely that millennial generation, the part of the generation where it’s like, I feel like my hobbies need to be making money for me. And I’ve been doing so I published my first book in 2003, actually grew a vanity press, so that was an experience and that certainly taught me a lot. And then in 2010, I did a full indie publishing and I’ve been doing it since then. But, yeah, there’s something to be said for me. My success is, am I having fun? Is it filling the well? And if it’s not filling the well, then what am I doing wrong? Right? So, like, my newsletter, I dreaded writing my newsletter even though I was only doing it once a month. And so I was like, what am I doing wrong? And so I started following all these other author newsletters and then I picked the parts that I loved and then I basically made a script or a template for myself every month I do this and this and this and these are the three parts of my newsletter. And now I have so much fun with it. Right. To me, definition of success is having fun and learning and challenging because I’m a perpetual learner. I don’t know if you know, strengths finder or anything, but yeah, number one for me.

Jami Albright [00:06:38]:
Oh, wow.

Belinda Kroll [00:06:39]:
So I don’t think I could ever be anything but a discovery writer because of the fact that intellectual is so high. If I want to learn, I want to enjoy the learning and I want to be able to apply the learning. And so I think that those are all very important things to me. And then also at the end of the day, it’s about the readers. So are they having fun with it too? I’m having a lot of fun writing. Are they having fun reading? So it is a mutual sort of a codependent relationship there. But yeah, that’s really where I like to live.

Sara Rosett [00:07:17]:
That’s great. I think that’s fantastic. I’m also a number one intellectual, so I totally understand that. But I think it’s interesting that you described how you changed your newsletter routine, like, by following other people, and then you gave yourself some structure, which can really help with, like, I don’t know what to write. So you got ideas, gave yourself structure, and then you use the word fun quite a bit. So I think that’s so obviously that’s so important to you. And then because it’s important to you, you’ll pass that along to your readers. I think that’s just fantasy.

Belinda Kroll [00:07:55]:
Definitely the goal.

Jami Albright [00:07:59]:

Well, what do you wish you’d known about writing and craft when you started?

Belinda Kroll [00:08:06]:
So that book from 2003, that was actually my I’m going to date myself. It was my high school senior thesis.

Sara Rosett [00:08:12]:
Okay.

Belinda Kroll [00:08:13]:
And my dad helped me find this company. They were called Abentine Press; they may still be around. But at the time I had written that book like seven times already by the time I had published it. I started in 6th grade or something.
And I was obsessed with the Civil War. And I wanted to do this like epic romantic drama, but I still have it feel really sweet because I didn’t know any better, but I was trying to do things like have motifs because I felt like I needed it to be important writing. And I’m a genre writer and genre writing is important too, like in and of itself.
And so I wish I had one. I think back then there weren’t as many craft books that spoke to me in the same way. Like now, I think it’s like Gwen Hayes romancing the beat. I found her book and it changed my world. Right. And it’s like and it’s short and it’s sweet and it’s to the point and gets me exactly what I need, but it’s also so flexible that I was able to go into a draft that was halfway through, I was able to cut 30,000 words, re outlined. Like, re took, like, new index cards based on Romancing the Beat rearranged scenes. And all of a sudden I was like, oh, here we are. Okay, I get it. And so I think because intellectual is so high for me because my discovery writing is my comfort zone, I think things that I wish I understood were one. Like, I don’t have to go, like the literary route but also don’t be afraid of some form of structure. Like, similar with the newsletter, I was trying to just wing it every single month. And that was causing me so much stress where I think having guidelines and knowing I can break them if I want to because at the end of the day, this is my writing, sure. But having that ability to say I have this guideline, I don’t need to reinvent the wheel, but I can make this unique to me and to my characters and to my story. And that can also save me a lot of time. Because now, when I was writing back in 2010, I was still single. I had just come out of grad school. So I was used to just holding in a room somewhere and not talking to anyone for a couple of days. Now I have a house, I have a full time job, I have a husband and kids. There’s a lot of demands on my time and they’re good demands. But I need to be more efficient. And so I think that’s the other thing is, like, how do I stay efficient even as I’m having fun with things? So that definitely is a huge factor for me with the craft of writing is how do I keep it fun? How do I keep it as low pressure as possible? But then how do I also be as efficient with my time knowing that I’m going to be in my brain a lot? And that’s okay. I think that took a long time for me to realize it is okay to be in your brain and not put pen to paper. Because when I do put pen to paper, I’ll spit out 3000 words when it finally happens. So I just have to trust that process.

Jami Albright [00:11:35]:
One Romancing the Beats. I use it as an editing tool more than I use it as a plotting tool because I usually know the beginning, the middle and the end. And so then I write a discovery right to those places. But then when I’m finished with the first draft, I’ll look at Romance the Beats and say, kind of like you did, I hit those marks. And if I didn’t add them in or rearrange them because maybe I hit them, I just hit them in the wrong place for me. That’s how I use it. And then what’s the second thing I can’t remember? I don’t know. But the biggest thing is Gwen Hayes’s book. Romancing the beats. Go get it.

Belinda Kroll [00:12:23]:
And again, it’s short and it’s to the point.

Jami Albright [00:12:26]:
Yes, it is.

Belinda Kroll [00:12:26]:
It’s really accessible.

Sara Rosett [00:12:28]:
I love nonfiction. That this is what you need. Here it is. I’m done.

Jami Albright [00:12:39]:
I remembered it. Yeah, it just takes me a minute. Yesterday we were at lunch, and my husband kept saying, why do you keep doing this? I was sort of staring off in the space, and I was sort of pointing, but I wasn’t really pointing, but I was leaving my hand a little bit, and I was thinking about my book. I was like, oh, I’m just thinking about my story. Sorry. I just am in my head with it because I’m number ten intelection. Not as high as the two of you, but still in my top ten.

Belinda Kroll [00:13:13]:
It influences a lot.

Jami Albright [00:13:15]:
It does.

Sara Rosett [00:13:17]:
There’s a lot of thinking that goes on, figuring it out. And you’re right, you don’t always have to put it down on paper right away. And sometimes it’s better if you don’t. I do less revision if I think more about my story before. And there’s other people who are completely opposite. Everybody has their own process, right?

But what about marketing? What do you wish you had known about marketing?

Belinda Kroll [00:13:43]:
I feel like I’m still in the middle of learning about marketing, but I feel like it’s a similar thing where, oh, this actually can be fun. So first off, I focused. I used to be on Facebook and Twitter and this and that and the other, and I was just spread so thin not having fun. Didn’t know what I was supposed to be writing on these different platforms to make it interesting and compelling. And then, honestly, I got canva pro. And I realized oh, well. So I was already using Canva to do my front covers. And then they started pushing the Canva Pro subscription, and then I realized they have a content calendar. And it’s like, well, I’m already in there doing my book covers and other things for, like, interior images. Why don’t I just get the Pro version, and then I can schedule content to Instagram. And so I focused all my time on it because I love Instagram. I’m in there anyway just for my personal accounts, right? So I thought, I’m just going to focus on Instagram. And then I discovered that they also composed to TikTok. So then I thought, all right, I’ll do instagram and TikTok. And TikTok. I’m really not as really not as much of a presence there. And I realized too, like, in order for me to get views, I have to do a 15 2nd video where it’s just my face on top of an image. So I’m like so there’s no point in planning that. I’m just going to do that at Whim. And people will find me if they want to find me, because TikTok is very fluid in that way. But Instagram, again, I gave myself a schedule. And so I try to schedule I’ll take like an afternoon the first Sunday of the month and I’ll schedule four posts and it’s going to be 02:00 P.m. Every Thursday. And that way I know I have something going and then if I have other things that are just like, oh, I found a thing or maybe I have an Instagram story, then that’s just additional great, we’re feeding the algorithm and then we’re also seeming organic. But I’m trying to at least have something at the same day at the same time. So that way the algorithm knows like, oh, she’s a regular poster. And so then it’ll start to anticipate. I don’t know if it does or not, right? Like we talk about this algorithm like it’s being but in my head I’m like, the algorithm knows and it’s going to tell my followers like she did a thing again. And same thing there is. I started following one. I just started following authors that I love anyway, but then I started paying attention to what they’re doing and what are the posts that are resonating with me and can I borrow that idea and shift it and change it for my purpose? And I think that has really helped because a lot of the marketing I was doing, I had to throw it all away because I was marketing to other writers. And that’s where the confusing part was for me, because I technically do have two lines of I’ll call it my publishing business. I have this stationery for writers, but then I have the readers, and the line was too blurry between the two of them. And so shifting how to market to readers has been a difficult journey. And I think it’s because the things that I thought were boring are actually really interesting to people. Especially if you package it in a cute canva graphic, right? I have this image on my profile where it’s like a pie chart and the pie chart says the Belinda Kroll brand and it’s like he always falls first or like edutainment because it’s a little bit I have history sprinkled in and it’s enough to tease you on if you want to go learn more. Or you could just live in this lightly historical world, right. You don’t have to go further than this, right? So it’s stuff like that, right, where it’s like again, how can I make the marketing fun? Because I think the fun is going to come through to my intended audience and my intended audience is here because they want to have fun. Like I am writing cozy fantasy. It is escapist fun. That is the whole point of it. It’s not meant to be serious. So that I think has been a journey, one to stop marketing to the wrong group of people. And then once I knew that, how do I market to the right group of people and get the right energy through to them. And I’m still on that journey. I don’t think I’m there.

Jami Albright [00:18:24]:
I don’t think anyone ever gets there because it’s fluid, too. I think that that’s fluid sometimes because your audience does change over time, and then the ways we have the vehicles by which we can reach them change. And so I do think that we’re always kind of on that journey, in my opinion. So you’re talking about on canva pro? You create your image and then you just upload straight from Canva Pro or Schedule?

Belinda Kroll [00:18:54]:
Yeah, you schedule it. The gotcha with that is the connection between Canva Pro and Instagram doesn’t allow, like, you can do reels, but you won’t get the trending audio because you’re scheduling in advance. Right?
I don’t know whether the reels actually get a lot of traffic because you’re not using their editor. And I think they know that. You also can’t schedule carousels where you have the multiple images you can swipe through. Right. And it seems like right now the algorithm is really favoring those. So I’m using a different app. I think it’s the simplified app. It’s like, simplified app is the URL for it. So that’s like the little annoying part, except I want a carousel. I download all the images, I upload to Simplified, and then simplified will post to Instagram. I’m not sure why different apps get different publishing rights.
But it’s still saving me time, and it’s increasing the engagement because as you get someone scrolls past the first image, and if they scroll past your account again, they get the second image, and then they might get curious, so they might go through the whole thing. So the more swipes, the more time is spent looking at your content, the more the algorithm thinks, oh, this person is engaging and wants to know more about what your account is doing. Right?

Sara Rosett [00:20:21]:
That’s a great tip. And I think that the learning not to market to writers and how to market to readers is like a learning curve that I think a lot of us have gone through. I remember being in a blog, a group blog, and it was for readers. But one time I went in, I looked at all the comments. I was like, oh, these are all writers commenting on our post, because we were all trying to share and help each other. But then I was like, if we’re just all sharing each other’s content with other writers, is it doing any good? No.

Jami Albright [00:20:59]:
The answer is no.

Sara Rosett [00:21:01]:
Yeah, no. But it takes a while to go, oh, wait, this is not what I wanted to do. I’m going down the wrong path.

Jami Albright [00:21:08]:

Exactly. Well, what assumptions did you make at the beginning of your writing career? And looking back, did they turn out to be right or wrong?

Belinda Kroll [00:21:15]:
So I’m trying to reframe mistakes as learning moments correct for myself. So whether it’s right or wrong, I definitely learned something. So I think with the first so I won’t go 2003, because that’s like a whole can of worms. But, like, 2010, I published Haunting Ms. Trentwood, and I listened to these podcasts and everyone’s talking about, oh, I published back in 2014 and 2015, and that was the heyday. And I’m sitting here and I’m thinking, oh, my gosh, I publishing in 2010. It was the Wild West. You could only do it through Smash words at the time. And I just threw my book out there. I had it edited. So I had gone through that.

Jami Albright [00:22:11]:
Well, that’s really great. You were ahead of the curve on that one, I would imagine.

Belinda Kroll [00:22:15]:
And so it’s true. I was ahead of the curve. And it was such that there was no content out there so you could make money without like, my cover was all wrong, right? Like, if I showed you my cover, it was basically just it was a woman that had her hair down and she looked like she was in a Victorian nightgown, and she’s looking down, it looks like a Victorian thriller. And again, because at the time, we didn’t have the words to say chapter one is going to be a little bit creepy, like Buffy the Vampire style creepy. And then we’re going to go straight up silly. The rest of this book, like, it is a silly story about a dad haunting his daughter, his adult daughter. He wants her to be married and get out of the house. And she’s just like, Why do you have so many opinions? How do you market that in 2010? And honestly, I didn’t need to because there wasn’t any other content out there. So I was making money because people were just desperate to fill their ereaders at the time. So then as I’m going along and I’m realizing, oh, this cover is terrible. This doesn’t say anything about the book. And then I did the other big thing, where is I flipped genres. So then I did a straight, like, young adult, Civil War side of life story, which, again, was good, and that’s my award winning story, but it’s not where my heart is. So now here I am six years later, and I’m slowly flipping back because I finally have realized I can make content with Trent with a series, and this can be so much fun and so silly and so escapist. I’m essentially starting over when it comes to building an audience. The audience that I had in 2010, they’ve moved on. It’s been 13 years, right? I think there are some people that maybe were like, oh, that lady’s writing again.
Like, that may happen. I had a patreon that I had thrown out there, but I didn’t know what I was doing. I just thought, oh, if people like me, they’ll throw some money my way. I guess like a tip jar. Patreon like a tip jar. Because we didn’t have things like Kofi back then or buying a coffee or these other platforms. So it’s so interesting. Even when I published my book the Young Adult Civil War in 2017, and then I kind of went dark because then I had my children, the Pandemic. And so it was in the Pandemic where I wrote a short story where I realized, oh, this short story is my bridge to making this 2010 book into a series. But it took my brain that long to figure it out. I had tried to write a sequel to Haunting with Troutwood in 2012. Couldn’t do it. I kept going back to that story. I had the wrong characters, I had the wrong people. Like, these things weren’t working out. And so I think my mistake was in one trying to force it, and then because I couldn’t force it, then I flipped genres. So it was good. It kept me writing, and I learned a lot with that book, but now I’m coming back, and now I’m trying to apply all the good learnings I got from all these other things I did. But let’s focus it in one place so people know what to expect from me.

Jami Albright [00:25:37]:
Yeah, I think that’s great. I just think those are lessons we learn along the way. I agree. I don’t think they’re mistakes at all. I mean, you learned so much, and I’m excited that you’ve kind of found your place that’s awesome. Where you’re having fun, which is your definition of success. So you’re winning already. Yeah, that’s right.

Sara Rosett [00:26:03]:
Well, you’ve already talked a lot about things you’ve learned and how your writing and your marketing has kind of changed over time.

But is there something that you could say would be, like, the most important lesson you’ve learned or the biggest change you’ve had to make in your thinking?

Either one of those.

Belinda Kroll [00:26:24]:
That is a great question. I think the biggest lesson that I’ve learned probably all revolves around where am I pointing my energy? So if I’m pointing my energy at something that is not furthering my goal, which is having fun writing and having a direct connection with my readers, then that’s a waste of energy. And that, I think, is the thing that I just keep focusing on. I actually have a calendar on my wall that just I just write big X’s on each day where I did something that furthered my energy. Like, am I investing in the thing that I care about? And if I didn’t, then that day doesn’t get an X. But if it’s something as small as I worked on because I’m trying to illustrate my I want to do an exclusive hardcover through my Direct store. And so I’m picking up my old drawing skills, and so I’m counting that, like, did I do a drawing tutorial today? Because that’s going to further the exclusive edition that I’m working on? Or do I listen to a podcast today? Like all those things count toward did I put energy in the right place for this thing that I’m doing? And as long as I did one small thing that day, then good. And I think when I was really Lucy Goosey and just throwing things out there and saying, well, let’s try this and that’s fine, and then I felt so was it like sheets to the wind? Like I was just all over the place. That was a very stressful, unhappy time for me and I was doing it to myself. So I think that’s where when I gave myself the space to take a step back and say, whoa, what are we doing here? That I think was my biggest learning moment. I think that’s where everything turned around. And that actually happened for me during the pandemic because I had thought, well, I’m stuck at home, I’m going to get so much writing done. But I was also pregnant with my second child and we had our toddler with us and we’re full time remote at home and instead I lost all my time and my energy was just focused on all the negative things that were happening in the world. Facebook was a very unhappy place at the time for me. I was seeing a lot of content coming through that really revealed stuff about people that I thought were close friends and family that really was upsetting. And I’ve never been great at boundaries, I think because my brain is very networked and it’s a very system way of thinking. This relates to that and that relates to that, and we’re all interdependent on each other. And I think that’s where I learned the boundary. And this boundary for me is where are you putting that energy?

Jami Albright [00:29:16]:
Yeah, I think that’s a great idea for people like me who do not write every day and for people who are high intelection. Because if you’re doing something to further either your career or your energy in this career, then you need credit for that. You need to give yourself credit for that. And a lot of times what I’ll do is just get down on myself because I’ve written in three days because I have to think about something and yeah, I just think that’s a fabulous idea. I really go get a calendar with a big sharpie.

Sara Rosett [00:29:52]:
I love you’re saying it all counts, which is so true. And we discount a lot of the things that we do that move us forward if it’s not like X or whatever, not like writing actual words or releasing a book or something.

Jami Albright [00:30:09]:
Right, so let’s talk about your cozy fantasies. It’s a newish genre, but it’s not really because you published a book in 2010 that was in this genre.

But what do you wish you’d known about writing that specific genre?

Belinda Kroll [00:30:29]:
Yeah, so I think even within the book that I wrote in 2010. It changes tone. And that was the biggest critique that I got for the book, is we start out and the opening chapter, this isn’t a spoiler, it’s on the back cover. Even the dad’s ghost crawls out of the grave during his funeral. And I go into a level of detail for that description of him crawling out of the grave and her sort of horror of like, whoa, what is happening? That sets the story up for it being a horror, really a light horror, but still a horror. But then by the end of the chapter, she’s waking up from she’s like, been sleeping for a couple of days and she wakes up and she’s like, that was clearly a dream, right? That was just a nightmare. And he’s like, oh, you didn’t see me. And so the end of the chapter is like, she’s crawled up on her headboard, her nightgown is all bunched around her knees and she’s sort of like this little giggle scream that she has. And so the tone flips even in the first chapter. And so I break my promise to the reader, right? Cozy fantasy definitely balances on this line of and I think there are a lot of debates about cozy fantasy as well. I go on reddit, and it’s about the vibes. You need to be feeling good the whole way through. You need to know that even if the stakes are high, because tosy fantasy, like, Travis Baldri is Legends and Lattes. I think his tagline is like, low stakes and high fantasy low stakes or something like that. And for me, my definition of cozy fantasy is it’s a lot of slice of life stuff. These stories are actually very small. My inspiration comes from Sailor Moon and Pride and Prejudice and Charmed and Buffy and those shows and books that are focusing on the lives of people and their romances. And we happen to have fantasy, too. We’re in a magical world where we don’t question things like floating books and whatever. And so I think for me, it’s finding what’s your slice within that fantasy genre where the cozy is what makes it cozy fantasy. So what about your story? Is cozy in the same way that a cozy mystery has rules? We’re learning those rules as we go, I think, for cozy fantasy. Cozy mystery, the way I understand it, the body is there, but you don’t see the murder, right? And now how do we solve the murder, right? So it’s like, in a similar fashion, there are things that happen in cozy fantasy that are off screen because they’re actually not as important to the story you’re trying to tell. But the fantasy is the structure of the story. And then I’m doing sweet romance on top of it. So that’s why sometimes I go sweet and cozy or that’s why I go cozy romantic, because I’m trying to indicate to people the actual main thread is the romance, okay? And then the ghosts, like right now, the ghosts are not part of the romance. They’re the external factor that cause the romance and brings tension to the romance. Okay, so that’s also, I think, an important distinction that I’m trying to help people understand.

Jami Albright [00:34:10]:

Right, so what’s the difference between paranormal cozy and cozy fantasy?

Belinda Kroll [00:34:16]:
I would say that paranormal cozy is probably a subset of cozy fantasy because paranormal is going into the ghosts, the vampires, the werewolves, and they are main.

Jami Albright [00:34:29]:
Portal portal, which would be more fantasy.

Belinda Kroll [00:34:33]:
Yes, I think you canva have a portal fantasy where you’re leaving the known world and hopping into this other world. And again, I think this is all about what’s that underlying framework that your story is sitting on. So if it’s a portal fantasy, then you already know you have to establish the normal world.
Think of Alice in Wonderland. What’s the normal world now? The journey to the new world. Now you have to explore the new world and understand the rules of that world. And then how does this character react to those rules and how do they then contribute and then do they come back to the normal world and that’s the journey or are they going to stay because that’s a different journey. So I think those things, again, like fantasy is such a huge genre and then the cozy part I think is all about what’s the vibe throughout that book and how does the reader feel. I think cozy is very focused on how are you making the reader feel.

Sara Rosett [00:35:31]:
Yeah, I agree with that. And I think this is so interesting because when we both started writing years ago, there was like these big genres, mystery, thriller, romance, fantasy. And one thing I’ve seen in the mystery world is everything’s starting to get more and more specific and more fractured. So if you like cozy mysteries that are travel set in Europe, you can do that now. And so this is like a new to me because I’m not as familiar with the paranormal and the fantasy. This is like a new way of thinking about this new way of splitting it out. I guess that will help readers find exactly what they’re looking for, which is very cool. And it makes me think I better start mentioning cozy mystery because in my mind, cozy just means cozy mystery. But now other readers are going to think, oh, that’s what I’m looking for and maybe they’re looking for paranormal fantasy elements and I’m not going to have that in mine so they wouldn’t want mine. It’s just all very interesting.

Jami Albright [00:36:33]:
It is.

Sara Rosett [00:36:35]:

Well, so let’s talk about your subscriptions.

Kind of change gears a little bit because that’s how I found you. I saw your ream profile and I just thought it was just so well done. I love the artwork and I loved your tiers. So can you talk to us a little bit of how you set that up? And how you’re introducing it to your readers. Kind of like your second go around with subscription, right? Because you said you’d done a patreon.

Belinda Kroll [00:37:01]:
Yes. So I think the important thing to know for this platform in particular, ream stories, the way I think of it is half patreon, half wattpad. The thing that I struggle with patreon was if I wanted to do updates and again, this was probably back in 2017 and I know things have changed since then, but I couldn’t group my content. So if I wanted to release chapters, it was just going to be in the feed. Whereas with Ream Stories, reamstories.com, I think, is where you would go. Do you have the ability to say, I’m publishing a story and I’m publishing chapters of a story on this schedule, and you could have multiple stories running at once, all on different schedules, and then you have the community built in. And so at first I actually had more tiers. I was part of their beta run, which was I think, very helpful for both side because I do have a background in computer engineering. My day job is user experience design. So there were things that I was catching on, just like, hey, as, we’re integrating with your stripe, this isn’t working and we need to work on the instructions for this. But I actually had, I think three tiers. So I had A-5-A $10 and a $20. And the more I looked at it, again with that lens of fun but efficient, I don’t have time to support free tiers. And honestly, I don’t think I want a ton of people in my top tier either because I don’t want to feel beholden or obligated. I want it to be fun. So my top tier, so I basically kept the top and the bottom tiers. So the top tier is my $20 tier. I call that the sponsor tier. And they’re going to get as I release them whenever I get a bookbox together, they’re going to get the bookbox for free, right? Or they’re always going to get like 15% off of my Direct store. They’re going to get free shipping from my store, always, right? As long as you’re in one of the 55 countries where I can do that because I use Pirate Ship and they have a simple export rate where you can just have a flat rate for things based on the weight of things. So I limited the $20 tier to five people. I think I could support five people, right? And honestly, more than that felt to me, I was like, that felt greedy and maybe that’s me just limiting myself, but I also just thought I could package like five care packages a year and I could do that. That’s sustainable for me. And then I kept the $5 tier, and I call that the beta reader tier. And that tier is where you get the early access to chapters that’s where you’ll see character art, and it basically is like my private blog and private community. And I did this because I was actually following. Their name is Kimberly Lemming. She has these very fun, spicy books, but it’s like that time I got drunk and saved a demon. It’s like the title of one of her books that sets the tone right.

Jami Albright [00:40:23]:
That’s perfect.

Belinda Kroll [00:40:25]:
And so I looked at her patreon, and she just has one $5 tier, and she even says in that tier, she’s like, I don’t have time or energy. I just want to make this fun for you guys. And so we’re just going to do one tier. And I just loved that thought of, yeah, this is because the reader wants to be closer to me. And I used to blog a lot, right. I thought blogging was the thing back in 2010. That’s how you did anything. And now I feel like the only people who are going to look at your blog are the people who care and know you. So, okay, now my blog is in my ream. It’s in my patron community. And so they’re seeing things like they’re seeing my sketches as my upcoming illustrated hardcover, right. And they’re commenting on the next book right now. They are the only ones who get to see other than my editor. They’re the ones who are commenting along the way. And I’m getting that feedback of, okay, I’m hitting the tone right this time. And I’ve really cleaned up my act. And I can tell because of the comments that are coming through and the fact that a character who was kind of annoying in the first book, he’s now the romantic hero in this book. And at one point, I had this comment. It was like, you’re making me like Jasper.

Jami Albright [00:41:49]:
Oh, there you go.

Belinda Kroll [00:41:50]:
I believe you’re making me like Jasper. And I’m like, oh, okay, I did it. Okay, cool. I was like singles. I think that’s really been the focus, again, of even my private community, is the community access. So I’d like to build a community around cozy Victorian fantasy.
I want to give people early access to chapters because I’m already writing, and so I might as well get the feedback from people. And then they’re getting that added benefit of they’re part of a special community where they’re seeing content early.
Anyone who is in the community at the time of publication will go into the Acknowledgment section of the book. And that’s something because I had done a kickstarter with hunting. Mr. Atwood in 2010. That’s the other thing. I did a Kickstarter in 2010.

Jami Albright [00:42:45]:
You are an early adopter or adopter.

Belinda Kroll [00:42:48]:
Yeah, I don’t see myself as an early adopter, but now I think I realize I am.

Sara Rosett [00:42:58]:
Sounds like it.

Belinda Kroll [00:42:58]:
Yeah. I’m hearing all these podcasts of oh, yeah, people are starting and of course with Brandon Sanderson. He took it to a place, but.

Jami Albright [00:43:08]:
Like, even ream people aren’t doing Ream. I mean, people are starting to do ream, but it’s new. And you were on their first kind of beta team sort of thing, which, by the way, we did an interview with Amelia and Michael, the creators of Ream and can we put that in the show notes?

Sara Rosett [00:43:36]:
So I had a couple of questions about the subscription before we leave that topic. Yeah.

How did you introduce it to your readers?

Did you have like, some people, they just launch it and they’re like, hey, it’s there. Other people have a very specific plan. So I’m just curious how you launched it.

Belinda Kroll [00:43:56]:
I feel like I did a combination of those things. So I talked it up a little bit on my Instagram, but I couched it with, hey, I’m working on a short story that’s going to be a teaser into the next book if you want to read this before anyone else join my community. They’re reading chapters now, so I put it around the sort of light event. So the event was not the community, the event was the content within the community.
And I think that there’s this woman, I love her to death. She found me. She was my first direct sale. She was my first patron on Ream. She’s just so supportive. And again, I will say I’m small.
I have two patrons right now, but that’s more than I’ve ever had before, so taking it as a win.
And I feel like the slow build is much more manageable because, for instance, I learned the hard way. I realized I had numbered chapters like twelve through 36, but I hadn’t numbered chapters tone through eleven. So I added the number to the chapter title and wiped all my patrons comments because the platform is new now. I sent a note to Lamelia and Michael, and I was sort of like, oh my gosh, I’m so dumb. I kind of assumed this was like Google Docs or Word, and clearly it’s not. Do you have like a version history? And they were like, no genre like the other so the other subscription platforms like Watpad and Railroad, I wasn’t experienced with those. And they were like, we totally understand your intuition, we’re really sorry. Luckily, it was only the first third of the book and I had already taken notes on everything. Oh, that’s good. And I was able to go into the Ream community and say, guys, I did a newbie mistake. Please don’t hate me. Please continue making comments, I will never do that again. But also they are working on a fix so that doesn’t happen to other authors as well. Right, but the fact that I can even do that, like sending a note to the readers and saying, look, I made a mistake, but we’re all going to live and grow through this.

Sara Rosett [00:46:21]:
We’ve all had things like that happen. And you’re right. When your community is smaller, it’s easier to manage whatever you’re doing. And I think you’re really smart to limit your tears until you figure out how much you can handle. I think that’s really smart and something that a lot of us don’t think about.
Subscriptions are kind of a slow build. Normally, it’s not going to be like your Kickstarter, you want it to launch because it’s going to end, but your subscription hopefully is going to just be like a long, slow, maybe up and down. Yeah.

Jami Albright [00:47:00]:
Because we don’t think about it. Because, like me, I’m like the thought of creating more content for me, especially right now, is so terrifying and on a big scale, that would just be, oh, I would feel so obligated. But if you start slow and you just then you still have to fulfill those obligations. But it’s not like you have 100 people or 50 people that are waiting for your staff. You’ve got two people or whatever, or ten people, which is a lot better.
I think that’s so smart.

Belinda Kroll [00:47:37]:
So my day job is about user experience design, right. And user experience design is about mapping mental models and having the system support what your user already thinks or knows or understands. And if your system has to teach something different, then you need to provide wayfinding. Okay. You need to go from here to here, and I’m going to walk you through with breadcrumbs and this and that and the other. So I think that’s too, where I’m applying those techniques and methods and just methodology to this. So I wanted to set up the expectation right away. When I have a story that is 80% done, then I feel comfortable releasing chapters to you guys.
If I don’t have a story that’s 80% done, this is going to be an ad hoc community. You’re going to get private blog posts. You’re going to get I’m a mom, so there’s going to be times where maybe I’m quiet. That doesn’t mean you guys have to be quiet. As a community, you can be talking with each other. So I really wanted to set that up, and I was kind of nervous about that.
Like, anytime you set up a boundary or try to set an expectation, you’re putting yourself out there for someone to be like, I don’t like that.
And I think that’s where especially because this is paid, that’s fine, it’s your money. I don’t want to take your money if you don’t want to give it to me.
But this is a mutual thing. I’m putting this stuff out there. If you love it, I’d love to have you. But if it’s not for you, I love that too, because we need that self awareness. Right.

Jami Albright [00:49:16]:
Go find what is for you.

Belinda Kroll [00:49:20]:
So I tried to be very upfront in my description, and actually my description in my community was much longer. It was like five or six paragraphs, and then I just kept tightening it and tightening it again. I put it through pro writing aid, and I was just sort of like, this needs to be as tight and succinct and to the point as possible because people have demands on their time. I know, because I do too. So what is the benefit? Why would you want to be here? And if it’s not enough, that’s fine. I can’t give refunds, but you can always cancel whenever you want. And if you want to come back, you can come back. It’s like hop on the discord and hop back off again. This is not a contract between us. Other than the fact that I would like to continue making content, and I feel like this gives me inspiration for that, where I can do that.

Sara Rosett [00:50:16]:
Well, I think you set it up in a way where it’s very similar to what I think I will try and do, is if I have content, I’m happy to share it with you, but I don’t like that pressure of how some people do a chapter a week or whatever, and I just can’t handle that. I would not be able to write. But, like, setting it up, setting the expectation that if I have something and it’s mostly done, then I’ll share it, I think that’s really a good way and a new way that we haven’t heard a lot of people talking about doing. So thank you for sharing.

Belinda Kroll [00:50:49]:
Yeah, exactly.

Jami Albright [00:50:51]:

Well, let’s talk about your all in one planner for Discovery Writers. Tell us what that’s about, where we can find it, all that stuff.

Belinda Kroll [00:51:01]:
So I have a website. It’s called brightbirdpress.com. Brightbird Press is actually my publishing imprint.
All my stories are published through that. And then I’m always on the hunt for the perfect journal. But because I’m high intellectual, there will never be a perfect journal. The all in one planner, I feel like got me pretty close. And actually, that planner is a combination of six other journals that I made. I started my Etsy in, like, 27. Well, so I had an Etsy in 2012 that one bombed. I rebranded in 2017 because I found, again, I found the thing I love to do. I love making journals. I love sitting in my affinity publisher and making page layouts and figuring stuff out. So the all in one planner is a combination of my original novel Journal, which was basically taking the concepts that I love from Bullet Journaling, which is get it out of your brain and get it onto a thing and then prioritize the things, the list, right? If you want to go learn more about Bullet Journals, go find writer Carol on YouTube. He has an amazing five to ten minute video. What we see now is Bullet Journaling is actually like creative journaling, right, where we have the stickers and the washi tape and the markers. And I feel like that puts a lot of pressure on people where the actual core concept of bullet journaling is really get everything out of your brain, get it onto a piece of paper. What do you have to do today? What do you need to just put in the future bucket? And it’s meant to be a very fast prioritization technique. And then you have the collections, which are basically your brain dumps, your themed brain dumps. So what I did is I took the themed brain dumps and put that at the front of the journal, and then I just left the back half blank. And that was the first novel journal where it’s like, what are comparative titles that your readers? And it was all, again, like, as a writer, what are the titles that you like? Who are the authors that you write like or you’re trying to emulate? What’s your setting? Who are your characters? What are their relationships? And they were just pages for brain dumps. And then I added a variation that had a monthly tracker. So then on the monthly tracker spreads, you have twelve spreads and you have just a list down the page. What days did you edit? What days did you write? What days did you do social marketing? What days did you write? And so it’s just more of the admin type stuff. Then I started getting commentary or questions on well, but this is great, but I want this tied together. I don’t just want the monthly tracker and the brainstorming. I’m trying to do nanowrimo. So national Novel Writing Month. You have this set goal. I have 30 days, I have to get 50,000 words. So then I created a variation for that, where you had the brainstorm spreads, and then you had these daily spreads. What’s your start writing count? What’s your target? What did you actually do? What are the three questions that you had from yesterday that you need to answer today? What are some notes that you have so when you go in tomorrow? And so I pulled all that together into one big journal. And she’s a beast. It’s a two pound journal. It’s the size of the classic Happy Planner. So it’s like, I think it’s seven and a half by nine and a half spiral bound. But that journal lets you track two projects. So you get all the benefit of the brainstorm spreads for two projects. Then you also get because it’s meant to be for a year, and it’s undated because I don’t like the pressure of, oh, I didn’t write on the 15th, now I got to go do something on the 16th. Right happened. And now we’re in the next month. And now I have all these wasted pages. There are no dates in any of my journals for that reason, because I don’t like to pressure myself. And so then in this all in one planner, we actually have a how is your year starting and what is your reflection from last year? And so that’s how the journal starts. But your year could start in August, right? You could go August to July if you want. You can reflect on your year. You can have this is my goal for the year. Do I want to finish a book? Do I want to do x number of words? What is it that you want to do? Then you have two projects that you can track and where it’s the full spread of brainstorming topics. Plus then also there’s a section for a monthly challenge, so it doesn’t matter what month, you get to choose the month, but you have 30 days of daily sort of spreads that you can work with. And then I take your year goal and I have quarterly spreads and month week spreads. Okay, so what’s your quarterly goal? And I also have a quarterly self care for writers page. So it’s sort of like a bingo page. Did you go outside this quarter? Did you do this, did you do that? So you have this bingo for the quarter and then you break down the quarterly goal into the monthly spread. What’s your mantra for the month?
Again, undated. And then you have weekly spreads and the weekly spreads are where it’s like, what’s your personal goal, what’s your work goal, and what’s your writing goal this week? So it’s meant to be. So you have one planner. You don’t need a personal planner and a work planner. You have everything together. And so that way you’re more likely, I hope, to keep up with your writing because you’re giving it the same priority as your personal, like, your home goals and your work goals.

Sara Rosett [00:57:01]:
It sounds really flexible, but if you like super detailed, you could use that. But if you want like a higher viewpoint where you only look at the monthly calendar, whatever, it sounds like you could do any of that. So very cool. I hadn’t heard of it and I can’t wait to go look at them.

Belinda Kroll [00:57:20]:
Yeah, actually, I think I’m asking my newsletter. So the thing about going direct too, is shopify can take your basically port your customers into I use mailerlite for my newsletter and I’m able to know who bought from a store versus who came in from something else. And I am doing the same thing with my Brightbird Press. So my Brightbird Press, my shopify is hooked up to my Etsy. So everyone who bought through my Etsy, I can make sure, like, hey guys, I’m going to release new covers for these journals soon because I’ve had the same covers for like two and a half years. So hey guys, what do you want? Do you want this cover? Do you want that cover? Do you want something different? Tell me how to support you guys. That’s my goal. I just want to support you. I feel like I hand package. All the stationery, all my fiction is all print on demand because I just don’t want to carry that inventory. But for the writing stationery, these are like writer care packages to friends. I just don’t know. Right. That’s how I treat this. So it’s a lot of fun.

Jami Albright [00:58:27]:
That’s awesome.

Sara Rosett [00:58:29]:
Well, you’re amazing. After talking to you, I’m like, wow, I’m so exhausted. You do all this and work full time.

Jami Albright [00:58:34]:
And have little kids.

Belinda Kroll [00:58:38]:
I mean, I don’t really sleep, but I’ve been an Insomniac my entire life. So at this point I’m just taking advantage of it.

Jami Albright [00:58:46]:
Make it work for you.

Sara Rosett [00:58:48]:
Well, this has been great. So we always like to ask everybody,

what’s the best thing you think you’ve done to set yourself up for success?

Belinda Kroll [00:58:56]:
I think the best thing that I’ve done to set myself up for success is really finding my healthy boundaries.
I think it’s completely changed my focus. It’s even changed my relationship and talking with my husband about it of, hey, I need Saturday morning. I’m going to go leave for 3 hours. I’m going to work at the library or a coffee shop. Are you good with the kids? And giving myself that permission because I am not good at that. I’m not good at leaving the house, I’m not good at leaving the kids. But I can also tell, like, if I’m not keeping that boundary for myself, I start acting unhealthy in just little ways, right. I’m not drinking enough water. I’m not leaving my desk. I’m not giving the kids space so they get to bond with dad because mom is always around. So I think that has been the biggest change for me is giving myself the permission to make a boundary, stick with it and then see the benefits of it. Because creating a boundary takes a long time to see the benefits. And that has been a journey in and of itself because there are times where it’s like, I don’t want to this is just causing more strife. Like, this isn’t helping anything. I’m just going to but then it’s like, no, stick with the boundary and see it through. You need to do it for at least like six weeks before you try to change something and see what actually is coming out of it. Yeah, fantasy.

Sara Rosett [01:00:28]:
That’s great.

Jami Albright [01:00:28]:
Well, tell everybody where they can find you, Belinda, and all your great stuff.

Belinda Kroll [01:00:33]:
Well, thank you. So you can find my website at worderella.com, so think Cinderella but with words. And that is also my social handle just about everywhere else. I’m mostly on Instagram, so if you’re going to want to really find me, go to Instagram. Find wordarella. W-O-R-D-E-R-E-L-L-A. Great. And that’s I know. It’s like whenever you spell out loud, you’re like, oh, no, am I going to do this right? But that’s my website and my Instagram and those are the best places to find me. Awesome. Perfect.

Sara Rosett [01:01:09]:
Okay, well, we will have links to those in the show notes, so thank you for coming in on talking to us today. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Thanks to Alexa Larberg for editing and producing the podcast, and Adria Williams for doing the admin, and thanks to our sponsor, Vellum. Don’t forget about them. We’ll see you next week.

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