Episode 189
KimBook York writes across multiple genres including romance, fantasy, and non-fiction. We talk about why there’s no “correct” way to write a book and why it’s important to trust your instincts in both writing and marketing. We also discuss the structure of serials and how that can apply to other genres, how to be a discovery writer and maintain a subscription, and how to avoid burnout.Author Website:
HouseofYork.info KimBoo’s Substack Kimboo’s spreadsheet for outlining a serial Joanna Penn’s Kickstarter for Authors💜 🎙 Become a supporter of the podcast! We can’t wait to give you a shoutout in a future episode. WishIdKnownForWriters.com/Support
Time Stamps:
0:37 Introduction
9:56 3 Fs of Success
11:32 No One Way
14:25 Consistency in Marketing
18:55 Joy of Writing
22:41 Don’t Stop
27:03 What’s a Serial?
35:03 Structuring a Serial
39:33 Serial Length
42:10 Keeping Serials Fresh
44:35 Ream & Subscription Tiers
50:17 Avoiding Burnout with Subscriptions
53:25 Subscriptions for Discovery Writers
56:09 Importance of Community
Transcript:
Jami Albright [00:00:28]:
And I’m Jamie albright. And this week on the show, we have.
Sara Rosett [00:00:35]:
KimBoo York, talking about serials
Jami Albright [00:00:37]:
It was so good. It was really insightful, and we kind of share Mind in a little bit. She’s way smarter than me, but we do think about things the same way. I was like, oh, tell me more. But, yeah, it was really good.
Sara Rosett [00:00:55]:
Yeah, I really enjoyed talking to her. And even if you don’t write serials, I think it will be helpful because we talk a lot about structure and the things that we talk about. For structuring a serial, you could apply it to standalone books or any type of series you’re writing. So it was very good.
Jami Albright [00:01:13]:
I thought it was, too.
Sara Rosett [00:01:15]:
Yeah. I have no desire to write a 300K serial, but I’m interested in how I can apply that to my writing. I enjoyed it.
Jami Albright [00:01:27]:
Yeah, it is. What’s going on with you?
Sara Rosett [00:01:30]:
Well, I’m seeing the light at the end of the tunnel for the Kickstarter. I’ve made my little list of things and I’ve ordered the print books, and so that’s like the last big thing and sent out the first batch of letters. So it’s all coming along. But I thought I should mention this. I learned I use the Shopify store for fulfillment. And one thing I learned about that I didn’t know before, which will probably be helpful to other people if they use shopify, is that wherever your store is set up and mine is in Texas, whoever logs on to purchase something. When they go to the checkout page, it will show sales tax and the store calculates it based on where your store is. So it always shows Texas sales tax. And then when you put in your information and go to checkout if you live in a tax free state or area or like, I only collect sales tax in Texas, so if you live in Pennsylvania or something, it will remove it when you go to check out. So I did have some questions about people like, why is it charging me sales tax? And it shows you what it could be. And it does say final sales tax calculation would be shown on the next page or something like that. But that can be kind of confusing if you get that question when you’re doing your store. That’s what’s going on. Okay. That’s like, the main thing I’ve had going on. I’m recording some mystery book podcast episodes because I’ve got that going again, and that is about it for me.
Jami Albright [00:03:05]:
Yeah, I know I’ve got a sweatshirt on today, but yeah, not much going on with me. I’m in Dallas again. So y’all don’t shoot me. I Agreed to help keep the kids before I was like, OOH, I want to start writing again. And I’m glad I did. My daughter and her husband took their youngest to Disney because he’s mean. His birthday is today, so they went for three days. And I am telling you, the videos and the pictures that we’ve gotten are priceless. And so it’s just made my heart happy because he loves Mickey Mouse and he has been living his best life. I’m happy to do it. Yeah. But I’m also ready to start writing. Like I thought more than ready. I’m ready to get home so I can start. Yeah, I haven’t had that at all. Even when I was writing a little bit back in the summer, it wasn’t like, oh, I can’t wait. It was more, I really need to start writing.
Sara Rosett [00:04:14]:
You felt that external pressure. It wasn’t like something that you really were passionate about in your heart, right?
Jami Albright [00:04:22]:
Not yet. Not then. But I am feeling that way now, probably because both stories I pretty much have figured out in my head. That’s why it takes me so long to write. I really have to have those big milestones figured out before I start writing. I just realized that I know that’s not people are like, Jami, you’re a little bit of a slow learner.
Sara Rosett [00:04:49]:
It takes a while to figure that out sometimes.
Jami Albright [00:04:52]:
I just have to have it all straight in my head before I can really start. That doesn’t mean I necessarily completely know my characters, but I know a lot about them based on the other stuff. I know. Anyway. But I’m excited. I’m excited to get home and block off time and turn my phone off, and I don’t have any more babysitting commitments for a while.
Sara Rosett [00:05:27]:
Or travel.
Jami Albright [00:05:28]:
Or travel. Yeah, I’m not going anywhere. So, yeah, of course we’re coming into the holidays, but oh, well, the holidays are the holidays. They come every year. If you’re going to shut down just because of that, you’re never getting anything done.
Sara Rosett [00:05:42]:
Well, that is great. I’m happy to hear it. So I have one other thing that I wanted to mention is joanna Penn has a Kickstarter going on right now for writing the shadow book. She has all kinds of different bundles, and one of them is like an online writing group course sessions. Two two hour online writing group course sessions and just some interesting she has a combo of the hardcover and workbook and audiobook. Like you can get everything. This is her nonfiction about figuring out what we’re sometimes resisting and not exploring because it’s our shadow side and how exploring that can help you write better. So yeah. Anyway, I’ll link to that in the show notes if anybody is interested. Anyway, so I’ll have the link to the Kickstarter in the show notes. If anybody’s interested in check it out.
Jami Albright [00:06:45]:
Good. And again, if you are in need of any author services, such as consulting or branding or just show me the way. You can find all that on my website at jamialbright.com/authorservices.
Sara Rosett [00:07:10]:
All right, well, should we get on to yeah, this is a great interview. All right, so here is Kimboo.
Jami Albright [00:07:17]:
All right.
Sara Rosett [00:07:23]:
Well, today we are really excited to talk with Kimboo York. Hi, Kimboo. How are you?
KimBoo York [00:07:27]:
Hi, how are y’all doing? I’m hanging in there right now, waiting for colder weather to hit Florida.
Jami Albright [00:07:34]:
I’m in a so, but I’m in you know, I’m in the north. Yeah, as far as that goes.
Sara Rosett [00:07:44]:
Let me read your bio and we’ll jump in. Kimbu York is a Gen X elder goth whose main life purpose is to provide her rescue met kiwi boo a good life. She is also a professional author, a former project manager, and a librarian who wears too many hats. She writes across multiple genres, including romance, fantasy, and nonfiction. So I love that bio.
Jami Albright [00:08:06]:
I do too.
Well, tell us how you got into writing.
KimBoo York [00:08:11]:
So it’s kind of stereotypical I was born to be a writer type of situation. My parents were both storytellers, and that’s, I think, the real key aspect for me. They’re Southerners. My mother’s from Memphis, my father’s from Appalachia up in Virginia, and they just spun stories so easily. And so I think it was real natural for me to get to a point where I was reading old enough to read and old enough to start learning how to write, to want to tell my own stories. And that’s pretty much been the story ever since. That’s my life of just constantly cycling through ways to try to find a way to tell the stories that I want to tell. So kind of bog standard in a way, but I think the real key is those my parents, the gift of my parents, their love of literature, their love of storytelling.
Jami Albright [00:09:00]:
I love that.
So when did you first publish?
KimBoo York [00:09:04]:
Well, that’s tricky question because I was actually a reporter and a journalist for a small regional news magazine in Orlando, Central Florida, in the late 90s. So when did I first get back? Yeah, kind of there is where I first got into the professional end of it. My first fiction novel came out in late 2010. 2011.
Jami Albright [00:09:29]:
Okay.
KimBoo York [00:09:30]:
Yeah. So that was a journey, and then that was with a small, independent publisher, and then I eventually drifted into doing self publishing a little bit later than that.
Jami Albright [00:09:41]:
Yeah. Well, we do ask cutting edge questions and tricky questions. That’s us in a nutshell. Cutting edge.
KimBoo York [00:09:49]:
I see how this is going to go now.
Jami Albright [00:09:52]:
All right, get your lawyers ready.
Sara Rosett [00:09:56]:
Okay, so second challenging question.
What is your definition of success?
KimBoo York [00:10:01]:
It’s interesting because I’m going to do kind of a shout out reference to joanna Penn, who I’m sure you all know, probably a lot of your listeners know who she is. On a podcast not too long ago, she talked about the three F’s, and they’re freedom, fame, or fortune. And for me, success is freedom. It’s that idea of being able to be my own boss, be able to stay home and travel when I want to spend time with my dog, Keeley Boo. So, to me, it’s not particularly a numerical goal. It’s like, I want to make so much money, or I want to sell so many books or I want to be on a bestseller list. I want to be able to have the freedom so that I can sit down and write my stories and just live my life comfortably in the way I want to live it. So that’s really my goal. That’s my definition of success.
Jami Albright [00:10:49]:
Perfect. I love that answer. That’s a great one, because I was sitting here thinking, three F’s, which do I want? Yeah, I probably want the fame, I’m not going to lie, but I do love the freedom. That’s a really awesome thing.
Sara Rosett [00:11:08]:
Yeah. I think a lot of us start out thinking we want the fortune, and then we get a taste of the writing life and we’re like, oh, this freedom is pretty good. We’ve all agreed that we’re unemployable, I think, in the regular job market. So it’s like once you tasted that, you’re not going back.
KimBoo York [00:11:25]:
Yeah, exactly. Such as where we are now. It’s like, yeah, no, I’m just not employable. Sorry. Yeah.
Jami Albright [00:11:32]:
Well, what do you wish you’d known about writing and craft when you got started?
KimBoo York [00:11:39]:
So when I was really started seriously thinking about fiction writing, I got my start in journalism and reporting in the 90s. But about the same time, I really started taking my fiction writing more seriously. And I really believed back then that there was one right way to write. Like, there was one way to do it, there’s one way to outline. And I really wish that somebody had just sat me down and said, you’re wrong. There’s multiple ways to get to the end, quote, unquote. And these days, one thing I love about the world that we live in right now is there’s so much expansion of that idea. There’s panthers, there’s plotters, there’s people who use outlines, people who use write to beats. There’s just so many different ways of doing it, and whatever works with your brain is the way you need to do it. And I just did not realize it. And I wasted a lot of years trying to do things the way other people told me I should do it. So, craft wise, I think that was a big hurdle for me to get over over the years.
Jami Albright [00:12:46]:
And you’re writing a book now about pantsing.
KimBoo York [00:12:49]:
Yeah, exactly. I am. I am writing a book about how to be a right. Right. It’s actually kind of a combination of so Becca Syme recently published a book about being an intuitive writer, and Dean Wesley Smith has written a book about writing into the dark, which is what he calls pantsing. But really, there’s not a lot of resources out there for people who are like, me, I’m a pantser. Like, just owning that right straight up, who need those certain techniques and methods of writing that aren’t really talked about because everybody just tries to push people into doing outlines, which outlines are great, and I still use outlines just in a different way than often way people are taught.
Jami Albright [00:13:33]:
Right.
KimBoo York [00:13:34]:
Yeah. That was one of the motivating factors for starting this new book is because I was just like, there’s just nothing out there. What if you’re like me and you need help?
Sara Rosett [00:13:43]:
That’s so important? Because there’s really not a lot about it, and I don’t know what the split is. Becca Syme could probably tell us how many people give rough estimates, but I have a feeling it’s like, close to half. Probably just law of averages. There’s probably a lot of people that write that. And like, with everything, if you can figure out certain techniques to help you do certain things faster and better, why not? Why not get it down so other people can learn, not go through all that, learn themselves, like, kind of skip ahead faster?
KimBoo York [00:14:18]:
Yeah, because we all run into stumbling blocks. It’s just the techniques of how we get through those stumbling blocks.
Jami Albright [00:14:23]:
Right.
Sara Rosett [00:14:25]:
What about marketing? What do you wish you’d known about that?
KimBoo York [00:14:29]:
Well, when I saw the question, I was thinking about it, and my first response was, I wish I’d understood the importance of consistency, not just in output and productivity and releases, but consistency in marketing. Like constantly putting your face and your name out there. But that kind of got me into the idea that marketing is always changing. Like how you market a book in 2010, definitely not how you market a book in 2023. Right. I mean, we all seen the sea changes that have happened, but what is the thing that hasn’t changed? And that is word of mouth. And I think really the consistency key is where you can tap into the word of mouth. It’s advertising and marketing and social media. It all circles back around to trying to get readers who are interested in your writing and then sharing that with other people. Because I can tell you, the last few books that I’ve read and really enjoyed, I didn’t find on a bookshelf, I didn’t find in some random search. I found because my friends on Twitter, Blue Sky, or Facebook, they’re like, hey, this is an amazing book. You should read it. And so to me, that’s the real secret sauce of marketing. You’ve got to be able to find a way to tap into that word of mouth. And the best way to do that is just to be consistent. Constantly putting out stories, constantly being around so that people can find you.
Jami Albright [00:15:57]:
I love that. That’s really awesome. I’ve lost my place on the questions. How long have we been doing this? Three and a half years. I still don’t know what my next question is. Okay.
What assumptions did you make at the beginning of your writing career and looking back, did they turn out to be right or wrong?
KimBoo York [00:16:20]:
So this kind of circles back to the craft question because one of the assumptions I made early in my writing career was that there’s a certain way you do things, there’s the correct way you do things. And so the assumptions I made in my own writing career was that I would have to reshape myself as a writer to fit into market expectation, reader expectations, these types of things. There’s always going to be a level to that. I don’t want to think people like I’ve ascended and I have no concern about those types of things anymore. But what I really wish I’d understood, the assumption I wish I could have talked myself out of was the idea that people didn’t want to write what I want to read because they do and maybe they may not be the biggest audience. Like if your know Jamie, if your goal is to fame, then that’s a different goal than kind of what I’m looking for and there’s no shame in that. Everybody has their know goals and dreams and stuff like that. For me it’s like I want to tell the stories I want to tell and I need to have faith that there are readers out there and there are. I know this, this is like a proven concept for me, but I still keep trying to shoehorn myself back into that old belief system. It’s a wrong assumption and let’s see it is. It’s like there’s 8 billion people on the planet, there’s enough people to read what you want to write. And so it’s just a matter of deciding if you’re going to pursue that and what your goals and your dreams are for your own writing career. So that was another wrong assumption. Wrong like wrong.
Jami Albright [00:18:00]:
Well, I think that goes back to a lot of what I talk about. A lot that really hampered me, I think in joy, if not just my career, was the thinking I had to do it like everybody else did. And that comparison and I feel like that is so destructive and can be really paralyzing if you’re not listening to a lot of voices. If you’re listening just to a certain group of voices, then you’re going to get in that kind of mindset of I have to do it this way and if I don’t do it this way, then I’m not doing it right.
KimBoo York [00:18:48]:
Yeah, exactly. That was not wrong assumption. Bad. Very bad.
Sara Rosett [00:18:55]:
What’s the most important lesson you’ve learned?
KimBoo York [00:18:58]:
So this one is one I’ve really had to take to heart over the last couple of years because I’ve had a few instances of burnout. I’ve had a few instances of feeling very defeated by the career, and that is, do not let the business of writing rob you of the joy. Writing too often fall into that. Like the earlier assumptions I was talking about, I have to do it this way, I have to do it that way. And I get so wound up that I forget that I’m telling these stories because I want to, because I have these characters in my head and I have these ideas and I have these big vistas of adventures and don’t let the business of it rob you of.
Jami Albright [00:19:41]:
That just that’s a great answer.
Sara Rosett [00:19:47]:
Bogged down in sort of like the admin of you’re keeping up with everything that has to be kept up with and then keeping up with all the new stuff that’s coming out and trying to decide what you’re going to take in and what you’re going to pass by. Yeah, it can wear you down pretty fast.
Jami Albright [00:20:09]:
Like direct market. I mean, direct sales, which everybody’s talking about and we’ve talked about.
KimBoo York [00:20:17]:
Yeah, I’m doing direct sales. I’m getting into direct sales. I’m like, listen, I’ve been in the IT industry. I’ve been building websites since 1996. I understand all the back end. I get it all. It’s still a lot of work. You all it is a lot of work. It is to get everything running up and running and all the hooks.
Jami Albright [00:20:39]:
It’s a lot. Yeah, I can imagine.
Well, what’s the biggest change you’ve had to make in your thinking since 2010?
KimBoo York [00:20:53]:
So I guess I feel like I’m repeating myself a lot because it gets back to the idea of there’s no one right or wrong way to do things. And to a certain extent, it’s just my nature. I think it’s part of being in IT and being a librarian. The book goes on this shelf. That’s where it goes. That’s what it is. So the biggest change for me has been not to get woo woo alert, but like, leaning into the process and trusting my intuition and believing that in myself and my own talents, there’s always more to learn. I’m not saying I’m expert at everything, but leaning into that instead of constantly trying to fight against it. That’s been a biggest lesson for me because as you were saying, Jami, you’ve got so many people sometimes around you telling you this and telling you that, and you need to get on this platform and you need to do it this way, and you got all this. And I’m just like I have learned to step back, take a deep breath, and then really look at what do I want to do, what fits my vision for my author career and what can I do? And so being able to understand myself a bit better, I think that’s really the biggest lesson that I’ve had to learn. And boy, the universe will teach you a lesson if you don’t learn it, it sure will.
Jami Albright [00:22:30]:
I had to learn the same lesson over and over for many years. Man, I’m not a fast learner. Not a fast writer, not a fast learner.
KimBoo York [00:22:40]:
I know the feeling.
Sara Rosett [00:22:41]:
We’re all there.
Well, if you were starting over today, what would you do differently?
We have some new authors. So what would you do right now?
KimBoo York [00:22:54]:
Well, I think if you boiled it all down, my advice would be the simple phrase don’t stop. Don’t stop. Don’t stop writing. Don’t stop putting your work out there. Don’t stop networking with other writers, even if you’re in a lull. And I know, Jamie, you’ve been through some times lately where things have been in a lull, right? And life hits you hard in those situations. I lost my parents in the 90s, both of them, and when I was in my mid twentys. And I think that derailed my writing career for a lot of years, too. You have to be sympathetic and kind to yourself, but the greatest kindness a writer can do for herself, in my opinion, is to keep writing somehow. It doesn’t have to be fiction. You can do essays, you can do blog posts, but keep going. Don’t not stop. I spent too many times stopping and freezing up, and I would just tell anybody who’s, starting today, just write, finish those stories. If you don’t feel they’re good enough, mothball them, write the next story, just keep going. That would be my advice.
Jami Albright [00:24:07]:
Yeah, I think I can agree with that, having been through what I’ve been through, because I didn’t, like I’ve said in the last, except for just starting in more than a year, all I wrote was my sister’s obituary. And so I wish that I had journaled. I mean, journaling would have been but I’m not a huge journaler. I’m a talker. I got to tell people what’s going on. But I wish that I had, because I think it would have been good to be able to look back on some of that and see kind of where I was and where I am now. But yeah, I agree. Had I not had this podcast, I would have virtually been out of the writing business, that’s just the bottom line. So I’m very grateful for this podcast and for the community, but I think you’re right.
KimBoo York [00:25:08]:
You’Re you don’t sell yourself short, Jamie, doing a podcast, because I do my own. I have around the writer’s table with a couple other writers that I do one with. We do about two episodes a month. Not quite the same schedule as you guys, but that takes a lot of energy and creativity, too. Like you said, you were still in it, you were still talking about writing. You didn’t stop. You didn’t stop. Not really. Maybe there was no pen to paper. But you didn’t stop. You stayed engaged with the writing and the writing community. That counts, I think.
Jami Albright [00:25:41]:
And I will tell you that I’m not at home right now, and I’m, like, chomping at the bit to get home. So I can write because I can’t really write where I’m at right now. I’m at my daughter’s. It’s too loud. It’s just too much going on. I mean, actually, it’s not that bad, but I can’t really do it away from home. I got to be home to do it, but I’m ready. I want to get home and start writing. So that’s really encouraging. But as an encouragement to other people, it’s been two years this month since I put out a book, and it’s been a year and nine months since I really wrote anything. So I’m dabbling here and there with some stuff, but for the most part.
KimBoo York [00:26:34]:
That’s exciting. You’re getting back to it, though. That’s awesome.
Jami Albright [00:26:36]:
Yeah, it is.
KimBoo York [00:26:37]:
So happy for you.
Jami Albright [00:26:38]:
Well, thank you. Not to make it about me, but again, fame is that thing. Yeah, let’s talk about me. Oh, gosh. Well, we wanted to ask you some specific questions about serials. So Sara, heard you on the ream podcast. So, Sara, why don’t you start us off with those questions?
Sara Rosett [00:27:03]:
Okay. Well, so tell us, like, you have a book out now called become an Unstoppable Storyteller how to Craft Compelling Serials.
So let’s talk first about what’s your definition of a serial, and is there anything you wish you had known about writing serials, like looking back?
KimBoo York [00:27:24]:
Okay. Both good questions. Well, as I explain in the book itself, I go through great Pains was probably the most difficult section of the book that I had to write, is, like, what makes a serial different from a novel? Right? And you certainly have long, like, I mean, we’ve got the whole Dragon Game of Thrones thing, right? That’s a huge song of ice and fire. That’s a huge, huge story. And so people are looking at that and they’re going like, well, those are novels. I’m like, but are they really, to me, a serial? I often talk about a novel as kind of a clamshell. Like, it’s very closed. You have one set of beats that usually apply, whether it’s Romancing the Beat or the hero’s journey, the 1213 steps of the hero’s journey, the three act structure, the basic one that everybody knows. And that’s what a novel is. It has a start, it has the climax, it has the end, and lots of different steps in between. A serial I tend to call a generative story because there is shorter arcs that go through what I call a season or an arc. If you’re used to manga, then you might think of it that way. But there’s also the longer arc. There is a much bigger story going on behind the shorter stories. And of course, most people are familiar with this from television series because you’ll have television season and there’ll be episodes all throughout the season. But there’s a long story arc going all the way through the whole season. Right. And so, in a sense, to me, a serial is really structured in that way. It’s got layers of story arcs that are going along in tandem but have different ends and different goals. Which is why a serial can run so much longer because you can just start cycling through the story beats and the story arcs as some finish up.
Sara Rosett [00:29:26]:
Yeah. This is fascinating to think about it this way because I feel like an Episodic series or a flat arc character series has a lot of these elements that a serial would have because that’s how you can extend them so long. Some of the mystery series go on for 20, 30 books. So I think you’re right. It’s the layering of the arcs that if you can keep those going, you can keep the story going.
KimBoo York [00:29:57]:
If you think about some of the really popular, like, cozy mystery series cozy Mystery is what I’m thinking of, where those series can go on for 10, 20, 30 books. Right. Well, oftentimes there’s still the romantic arc and that’s coming and going through. Right. So each book is a mystery that gets solved. But there’s this other thing that’s going on. Or there’s a relationship with a family member, like a mother or the long lost brother that know Fanny Fryin who’s looking for her sister who died. Right. So you’ve got all these different things going on that pull the story along. And that’s what makes them serials, in my opinion.
Jami Albright [00:30:39]:
I think one of the for me, like when you were saying that the Charlaine Harris Southern Vampire series, which True Blood was based off of, those are very much serialized kind of urban fantasy romance. I don’t really know how you categorize those except crack, because I couldn’t put them down. But yeah, because there is like a little mystery in every book. But the bigger will she, won’t she, who will she with continues on through all the books and you just don’t know. You really don’t know. And even when it seems like she’s with somebody, she may not really be with somebody.
KimBoo York [00:31:29]:
Right.
Jami Albright [00:31:30]:
They’re very good. She’s very good about doing that. I know some people didn’t love them, but I did.
KimBoo York [00:31:38]:
And I think whether you love the particular stories or not, your example of it is perfect because, yes, she’s got these relationships, these multiple characters. She’s got ensemble. Some books, i, too, read all of them. So I hear you, Jami. I’m with you on that know, some books focused more on her family and her relationships. Others focused on the romance and some focused entirely on vampire politics. I’ve kind of forgotten after all these years.
Jami Albright [00:32:05]:
Yeah.
KimBoo York [00:32:06]:
Yeah. But yeah, that’s exactly what that was. I would definitely put that series in its book series. Into the serial bucket.
Sara Rosett [00:32:14]:
Yeah. So do you think it’s important to have one continuous throughline for a series, or can you just have a series of story arcs with the same characters, but maybe, like, first you’re in this quest, and then you transition to some other type of storyline?
KimBoo York [00:32:34]:
I think you can do that. One of the ones I was talking about in the book is where that structure is very much joined like beads on a necklace. There’s one story there, and the through line is a specific character, or the through line is a specific situation that’s going on. I think in the book, I used the example of, like, a zombie apocalypse, and you have a group of characters traveling across the landscape, and so there isn’t really a through line in the sense of a political conspiracy or they’re chasing after somebody, but the scenery is changing, and so they’re going into different types of situations with every episode. So I think that’s very possible. I think the real key with serials is to have some kind of through line, though. I think if you’ve just got closed stories where it’s just them, I don’t know. At that point, you’re getting into Nancy Drew level of just very isolated, which I don’t mean to sound denigrating to that. I loved Nancy Drew, but they were constructed for young readers, and so they don’t have those kind of follow through arcs that I think would define an actual serial. So, like, Nancy Drew compared the Charlyn Harris series of the like, those are two different things in my mind.
Sara Rosett [00:33:58]:
Yeah. And it’s the question of what’s going to happen with this through line that pulls you one book to another. Like, the Nancy Drew books are books that are just more standalone episodic. You may go back to those because you want to go back to that setting, that friend group or whatever. But if you have a burning question about, like, oh, is so and so going to get together with so and, you know, are they ever going to find out what happened to the mom or the dad that will pull you back again and again. Right, right.
KimBoo York [00:34:28]:
Yeah. Like, the mystery of Drew’s parents. Like, who are they again? Like, nobody knows Nancy Drew’s parents. You could make a whole through line on something like that. But yes. Yeah, I would agree that that’s the case, very much.
Jami Albright [00:34:40]:
Yeah. They’re very different types of books. Not just because the nudity and the blood in the Charlene Harris.
KimBoo York [00:34:47]:
Yes. It’s a weird conversation where you’re comparing Nancy Drew and Charlene Harris, but okay, we’re going to roll with it. Yeah.
Jami Albright [00:34:55]:
Two classics. Yes.
Sara Rosett [00:34:59]:
Jamie’s cracked up. She can’t talk.
Jami Albright [00:35:03]:
Gosh, it’s funny.
Well, so how do we structure a serial?
Because in my mind, I am an intuitive writer. Structure always just seems kind of confusing for me when I think about writing it down. But then I look and I’m like, oh, I’ve actually written there is a structure here, but I just don’t so tell us how we structure one.
KimBoo York [00:35:30]:
So, again, it kind of depends on the type of writer you are. I have that free spreadsheet. I mean, anybody can copy it. It’s a Google Docs spreadsheet, and it gives some examples of beats for different types of serials that you can set up so people can go just copy that. If they’re outliners, if they’re plotters and they just want an ABCD, they could just go copy that and fill in the blanks and they’re good to go. I think, however, when you’re thinking about setting one up or if, like Jami and I, we’re both intuitive writers who are mostly pantsers, the question is the question the question is, what is the big question? So I would ask yourself, what is the thing that your character must do in the long run? Not in the short run, but in the long run? So if you have a character who’s going on an epic quest, right, well, are they just looking for the Holy Grail, or are they looking for personal salvation? Because in that sense, the Holy Grail is just an episode in the adventure, finding self acceptance, finding a family, a found family to belong to. That’s the real question. That’s what the real long arc is. So I think you don’t have to plan it out. You don’t have to make a big, heavy, long list of beats if you don’t want to. But you have to know what that big question is. What does your characters have to answer to or answer for or do in the long run? Because you can keep writing towards that. You can take detours, you can go around it, you can overshoot and then have to come back if you know that that’s the question your character needs to answer. That is a really good way to write towards the story, which in a serial, because no matter what else happens and whatever you throw in their way, you know, you’re having to get to that point. Also a good way not to get to it too early. That’s the big question. It’s like, oh, well, we’re three chapters in and they found the bad guy, and they have found the love of their life. Well, what now? Not how you do it. Same thing with serials. You have to be able to look further out than what is in the immediate vision of the story. Does that answer does that give you some idea of what I’m saying?
Jami Albright [00:37:57]:
I think about the Alona Andrews Kate Daniels books. The Magic Bites is the first one, and she is a loner, like her foster father has taught her to be a loner because she can’t trust anybody, because she’s got this blood, because it’s urban fantasy. Her outward quest is to her outward quest is to save the world from her real father. But her inward quest is found is to not be alone all the time anymore. And at one point in the book, she’s like, how did I end up with all these people around me? I have all these people. How did that happen? And same thing with I like urban fantasy. So same thing with the Jane Yellow rock series. She has a secret, nobody can know it, and now she’s got all these people around her that know her secret and how did that happen? Sort of thing.
KimBoo York [00:39:01]:
The example that I often use outside of the romance series is Lord of the Rings, because is a very long story. There are a lot of highways and byways and side stories, but there is always Frodo getting the ring to Mordor. like, that is the through line, no matter what else happens. No know tom bombadil and galrogs and all sorts of fun stuff, the through line. The question is, is Frodo going to get to Mordor.
Sara Rosett [00:39:33]:
Yeah, I love that. Because it really does give you a focus. And I can see how if you’ve got this is your goal and you can figure out all these other little detours you can take on the way and different ways you could extend or shorten or whatever you need to do, but then that keeps that in mind. So I think people will be curious about I’m sure this is like the question, like, how long should a novel be? As long as it should be. But is there like when you write the serial,
Do you have in mind like a general length of your serial, how long it’s going to be?
Or do you just let it run its course?
KimBoo York [00:40:09]:
So for me personally, yes, this is one of those things like how long should my story be? Well, I don’t know. How long is it? How many pictures do you have? Are you using the heroic beats? Are you using the three act story string? Like all these things? I will say this, most serials are at least 100,000 words. And I think for me personally, when I’m thinking about writing a serial, I aim for about 300,000 words.
Sara Rosett [00:40:37]:
Wow.
KimBoo York [00:40:38]:
Right? But when you think about it, that’s 10 30 thousand word novellas, you break it down. Yeah, 300,000 words. I write very long and so this is how I knew I was a serial writer. Just to blow your mind, there is one of the most popular serials, online serials out there is currently at 11 million words.
Jami Albright [00:41:05]:
Oh, my gosh.
KimBoo York [00:41:06]:
Right? Yeah. So there’s a lot of range and I think too with something like a serial, if you’ve got a really good set of characters, you can kind of pick them up again and do a whole new adventure. So there’s a lot of carry through in that sense. I personally shoot for 300,000 words. I think probably a million words is not uncommon for long running serials. 11 million words is definitely an outlier. But if you want to see how long some of these go, just go to Royal Road, which is a fantasy online fiction space. A lot of lit RPG on there, and fantasy and science fiction. Some of the longest running ones, there 100,000 words, 500,000 words. They don’t have to be that long. Like I said, I think the baseline is at least 100,000 words, a full serial, to be able to encapsulate all the elements that would make it a serial as opposed to a novel. Past that, there’s no limit. There’s really not.
Sara Rosett [00:42:10]:
Well, that makes me think, like so I know that some of the cozy mystery series that go on for a long time, sometimes they kind of get a little stale as they go on.
So these long, long serials, how do you keep them fresh?
And how do you like, do readers ever get kind of like, do they get tired? Do they want that satisfaction of having everything tied up? And how can you do that and then continue on?
KimBoo York [00:42:38]:
We have to remember that Arthur Conan Doyle did kill off Sherlock Holmes because he got so sick of writing him. Agatha Christie hated Hercule Poirot. In the end, she wrote over 55 works, including novels and short stories. So, yeah, there comes a point where you just may not want to write it anymore. And that’s fine, too, but that staleness, which is what you’re talking about, where a story, a series gets to a point, and usually I call it the cliff they usually get there between five and ten books. Sometimes it can go up to 20. They basically lose the through line. When you see that happening, they’re just cycling the same plot over and over again. Which is fine. That’s what we all do, especially in romance, right? We recycle plots all the time. But since it’s the same characters, they have nothing new to insert into the stories at that point. If you still love your characters, if you still think there’s more adventures for them to go on, if you still think that’s important, step back and look for a new through line. Like if Frodo has thrown the ring into the volcano, right, and Mordor’s been done, then maybe make the journey back home just as adventurous. Make it full of brigands who are now let loose because the bad guy has fallen and they’re no longer under control. And so they have a goal, which is to get home, but that might take another 100,000 words, it might take another five books. So if you feel like that something’s gone flat and stale, think of a new through line. Look at a side character who was really popular three books ago and see if there’s some way you can bring that character back and make them the villain. Like, maybe they were just an evil side character, but now make them somebody important. They went away. They got the new face or something to cause trouble. And so you need to look at that element because that’s what’s going to drag people and keep people reading the series, even though you really are recycling the plots over and over again.
Jami Albright [00:44:35]:
Okay, that’s great advice, though. That’s really great advice. So tell us about ream. You’re on.
So how do you grow an audience on ream?
What’s the best way to do that?KimBoo York [00:44:49]:
Well, ream is not a discovery platform.
Jami Albright [00:44:52]:
Okay. So you bring people there.
KimBoo York [00:44:55]:
Bring people there. Okay. In that sense, it’s kind of like patreon. Like, you don’t go to patreon to find an artist. You find an artist, and then you find out they have a patreon. That’s how that works. And it’s the same for Ream. We have a lot of authors who are especially if they already have a back catalog they’re going through and putting ream links at the back of their stories. They’re offering free reads, cut scenes, extra epilogues. Some people do character dialogue, like, what did you want to hear? Ask my character a question. That type of thing. And they’re making those perks for members give away a little bit. They’ll give away which we all do, right? Everybody gives away something. But the point of the giveaway is to draw them into ream as opposed to driving them to Amazon to buy something. People get a little uncomfortable with that, and I definitely understand why, because I was in that ecosystem for a long time, too. I’ve been in Ku. I’ve been out of ku. I’m wide now. I get it. But the thing is that the idea of subscriptions is that you’re creating a long lasting connection with readers who love your work. Rather than just throwing a book out the window and having them read it one time and giving you money one time, it kind of goes back to the at least in tech circles. I don’t know. You guys may be familiar with it or not, but the 1000 True Fans theory, are you familiar with that? Yeah. So it kind of goes back to that. Like, if I can find 1000 readers of the 8 billion people on the planet, if I can find 1000 readers who would be willing to give me about eight or $10 a month, and I’d be sitting pretty, I’d be very fine. Now, there are some authors, I think, on the subscription for Author Facebook. Michael, who’s the CEO of Rame, just did a whole little video thing on going to Chris Hopper’s fan meet. And Chris Hopper is somebody he has people paying him like, $200 a month.
Jami Albright [00:46:59]:
Oh, my.
KimBoo York [00:47:00]:
Right now. He gives them swag, and he gives them sneak peeks to books, and he gives them special hard copy editions. They’re not paying him for nothing. But these are superfans. These are people who are really invested. They’re evangelical about him because they want to go, and they want to tell all their friends to read his work. And so like Jamie for you, where the goal might be to try to get your name in front of as many people as possible, it may seem like, well, why would I want to corral everybody on Ream and just have them trapped there and paying me? The point is to create the excitement around you as an author and have a fan base as an author, because that’s what’s really going to push you over the line when you start pushing out those stories again, it’s going to be your fan base who’s going to go, Jamie’s back, baby. She’s got some great books. And they’re going to support you while spreading the word about you because there’s a commitment and there’s a community there. So that’s something I really wanted. And what I love about Ream, about subscriptions in general, I happen to be on Ream. I’m also on substack. I like both of those platforms. But whatever your subscription platform you’re using, that’s definitely the advantage of it, I think.
Sara Rosett [00:48:12]:
So tell us about your tiers and how your ream is set up, because there’s so many varieties.
KimBoo York [00:48:18]:
And let me tell you, when I was first setting it up, I had different tiers than I do now. I really simplified. I simplified so much. Yeah. So this is not an endorsement or a shout out, but there is a system called the Author Ecosystem by Russell Nohelty And I took that, and I found out I’m a forest, and people who are curious can go find out about that. But what it really told me was that trying to diversify myself with a lot of pin names was not the right way to go. So when I was setting up my tiers, I first did it. Each tier is a different pen name, and that just got to be really complicated, and I didn’t like it, and so, like, blew that away. Fortunately, nobody had signed up by then, so it was no problem. But what I have now is I have the House of York site because I’m York House of York. It’s kind of my ode to my parents. And there’s rooms in the house. There’s the studio. There’s Keely’s porch. If you just want to support my dog, that’s $3 a month. Like, help feed my dog, right? But there’s the studio, there’s the den. There’s the main room. And so I labeled the tiers like this to try to develop that kind of community, feel that vibe. And the different tiers are really just different access, faster access, early access to stories. I want to eventually get to the point where I can introduce a higher tier to give swag and actual material goods and hard copies of books. But I’m not there yet, so I really simplified. It went from very complicated level of tiers to just, like, three tiers now, but that makes it easier for me as a writer. We were talking earlier about know your own limits and I always realized I was exceeding them. So for me, I just really wanted to keep things simple with setting up my ream tiers. And I think that’s the advice for everybody who’s going into subscriptions. Start simple, you can always add more later.
Jami Albright [00:50:16]:
That’s true.
Sara Rosett [00:50:17]:
That brings up something that’s kind of been in the back of my mind. You mentioned burnout earlier and so dealing with having a subscription and writing serials, it’s kind of like a podcast you do regularly and there’s really no endpoint for some of it.
So how would you advise people to manage these recurring things and not burn out?
KimBoo York [00:50:45]:
I think the thing is, and it kind of does get back to what we’re talking about. Know thyself. And so previously I worked in disability services with local university and I was a technology coordinator. So I worked with a lot of different students trying to find technologies and ways for them to access the information that they needed. And one thing that I was so grateful for that job, even though it wasn’t a great fit for me as far as a career goes, because I learned how different brains can be. So let’s say, for instance, if you, Sara, are somebody who really gets a dopamine hit out of deadlines, like deadlines do it for baby, like that’s what you at. That the way to build on that is to make all your tiers around On the second Tuesday of every month, I’m going to give you a chapter. And that way it will feed into your desire to do more if the very idea of that sends chills down your spine, right? If that is an issue for you. And we do have a lot of neurodivergent people who are setting up subscription models. So this is actually a topic we all talk about a lot, is consistency and promises to your readers. So instead of saying on the second Tuesday of every month, say every month, I will give you a new chapter. Don’t promise when. Don’t promise on the day, don’t promise how long the chapter is going to be. And just communicate with your readers. This is my situation. I have health issues, I have kids, I have anxiety. That’s me. Hello. So I can’t keep to that kind of schedule. But I can promise you that you will get a new chapter every month. Know yourself, know how you produce. How much do you write every day? Do you write every day? Do you write once a week? Do you write 5000 words once a week? Or do you write 100 words every day? So with those kinds of understandings of how you work and how your brain works, create your tiers or create your promises, I should say to your readers around that instead of listening to somebody who says, well, you need to post a chapter every week. And that chapter needs to be 2000 words long. And it needs to be blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just no, screw that. Do what works for you and just be clear with your audience, the people who are signing up, what they’re going to get from you, because I think anybody can do it. It’s just a matter of knowing how your brain works and your best way of getting the most output.
Jami Albright [00:53:25]:
So I have a question then,
As a fellow discovery writer, pantser, how do you handle that?
Because I can get partway into a story and go, no, I’m going to do something different here, and then I have to go back from that point.
Sara Rosett [00:53:45]:
And those last five chapters.
Jami Albright [00:53:47]:
Yeah, forget that. We’re not doing that. Who’s Mary? I have no idea. She’s dead to me, as I said on the last podcast. But yeah, I mean, how do you handle that?
KimBoo York [00:54:01]:
Well, again, know thyself. If you know that there’s a point where you get to your story where you’re going to decide whether you’re going to continue it on. Don’t start posting the story until you get to that point.
Jami Albright [00:54:10]:
Good point.
KimBoo York [00:54:11]:
For instance, for me, it’s the 30,000 word mark.
Jami Albright [00:54:14]:
Yeah.
KimBoo York [00:54:14]:
At the 30,000 word mark, I know where this story is going to go. I know who my characters are at last, because I don’t know who they are. I’m a discovery writer. I got a name. That’s all I got. That’s it. But 30,000 words. I kind of know the characters, I know where the plot is going, and I know if it’s going to be sustainable for a longer story or if it’s something that should be a shorter story. That’s me personally. Another thing I highly recommend for discovery writers, not for everybody, but to have multiple projects going at the same time. Because even if you are sharing a story and it kind of stalls and you’re like, man, the next chapter is giving me grief. I need to something else. Communicate with your readers. Let them know there’s going to be a short hiatus on this story while you’re going to work on this other story. That way you’re always giving them something, right? In my experience, readers generally, if your subscribers, if they’re actually paying you money for your stuff, they’re supportive. And our experience has been for, and I speaking generally of subscription authors, is that authors who’ve had to take a break because of mental health issues or a family member died or they had to move suddenly, their readers would be like, that’s fine, just come back when you can, we don’t mind. And that’s really understanding. So it’s clear communication with your readers. And for me, as a discovery writer, having multiple projects going at the same time, and I’m actually in the middle of launching one transmigrated Terry, which is kind of a portal fantasy, and I finally hit the 30,000 word mark. And so I know I’m going to be able to continue this story and that’ll start posting that here in November. So it’s just having all those kinds of pieces of yourself and knowing yourself and having a way out should you need it.
Jami Albright [00:56:04]:
Yeah, that’s great. That’s great advice.
Sara Rosett [00:56:09]:
Well, I just had a coughing fit, so I’m sorry. I tried to mute myself, but I don’t know if I was fast enough. But I I’m think, okay, now I’ll survive.
Well, what is the best thing you’ve done to set yourself up for success?
KimBoo York [00:56:26]:
You know, I had several answers to that. The best thing that I’ve set myself up for success with has been not a technique, not even what we’ve talked about of having faith in myself and trust my intuition. It’s been this time purposefully creating a network of supportive fellow authors and in a way that kind of includes you all, because I’ve been listening to your podcast for so long. Like, you’re like family to me. I’m like, oh, I’m going to listen to them and they’re going to support me. Like, you didn’t know who I was, but you were supporting me. But I also have a lot of that in real life. Like, I have real life friends here I meet and do co working with and we do writing and we talk about our careers. I have people forums online that I can go to. Not just subscription for authors forums, but some other ones. I have a community on Blue Sky where I talk with other authors and we talk and communicate. That was something that was really missing for me. So that when I did hit problems, when I did hit rough waters, really didn’t have anybody to talk to or support me or talk me through things. And like, you were talking Jamie, earlier about how you didn’t write, but you had the podcast. Right. So in a know, that’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. You had Sara, you had your other friends, you had the community around this podcast, and that helped kept you going. So this time I have a lot of fellow authors. I have authors who are doing subscriptions. I have authors who know find very high minded literary authors. I don’t understand that breed, but they’re precious. But we all talk about writing and they’re very supportive. So having a supportive network I think is really the most important thing for setting me up for success this time around.
Jami Albright [00:58:14]:
I agree. That’s awesome. That’s such a great answer. Well, this has been amazing. I’ve loved it. Can you tell everybody where we can find out more about you and your books and your serials and all of that?
KimBoo York [00:58:27]:
Sure. The best way to do it is to go to kind of my online hub or my links tree, whatever people want to call it. It’s at houseofyork.info. So that’s houseofyork all one word info and that has links to my substack, to my ream. My substac is mostly nonfiction. I talk a lot about writing on there. Ream, which is where all my fiction lives. My direct sales store, links to buy, become an unstoppable storyteller and just go there. You’ll find me.
Jami Albright [00:58:59]:
Okay, great. House of York. That’s great.
KimBoo York [00:59:02]:
Yeah, thanks.
Sara Rosett [00:59:04]:
Well, thank you for being here. It’s been great. Just dig into all this together and geek out on serials. We’d loved it.
KimBoo York [00:59:13]:
No, thank you so much. It’s great. Like I said, I’ve listened to you all for a long time. It’s been a real honor to be on here and to meet you and to talk to you. It’s been great. Thank you so, so much.
Jami Albright [00:59:23]:
You’re welcome. You’re welcome.
Sara Rosett [00:59:25]:
Great time. So we will have all those links in the show notes and they will be@wishideknownforwriters.com if you want to support the podcast, you can go to that same link support. Sign up there. And thanks to Alex Larberg for editing and producing the podcast and to Adria Wiggins for doing the admin. We’ll see everybody next week.
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